Categorized | Blog

Emptiness, Freedom and System in Buddhism and Yoga

Buddhism and yoga share goals of freedom. Buddhism has the goal of nirvana which is similar to Rāja Yoga’s goal of nirodha—both of which find expression in the concept of śūnyatā (emptiness). How we balance discipline in practice and application of theory through the perspective of emptiness is key to success.

After briefly exploring the notion of the “Absolute” in Abrahamic religions, Patañjali and Buddhism, Michael Stone notes in his book, The Inner Tradition of Yoga, that one of yoga’s strengths is its relative freedom from systematization:

Yoga seems to move within all these traditions quite comfortably since Patañjali, as an example, and also texts such as the Yoga Vāsişţa and Hatha Yoga Pradīpika, use language purposely borrowed from other traditions in a way that asks the practitioner to move beyond the doctrine of systems in order to see what those traditions are pointing toward. The yogi does not look toward her practices as metaphors of consolation, and in this sense we would call Patañjali’s approach toward reality an agnostic one. Standing on the threshold of imagination but firmly planted in present experience, the yogi is concerned with freeing the mind and responding to present circumstances without self-created entrapments. In an increasingly interconnected world, we come to see that yoga is everywhere and everything and that the human being is compassion. (Stone, 167-168)

Stone recognizes, however, that this outlook isn’t without its problems and possible complications:

The shadow of such a viewpoint is that there is no systematized approach to teaching, and many people simply turn yoga into whatever they want, leading to a self-styled practice that does not avoid the ego’s tricks and games. (Stone, 168)

Naturally, a kind of wisdom needs to be present in order to bridge the “flexibility” of yoga’s outlook with the discipline of systematic practice. Stone points to the term śūnyatā (emptiness) as the common tool that both Buddhism and yoga can use to bridge this divide:

We use the form of the posture to experience śūnyatā, boundlessness. Śūnyatā is freedom beyond the reach of karma, a body beyond the reach of preference, movement without self-image. Isn’t the experience of being alive in a body at all the the most mysterious and ineffable experience we can know? (Stone, 182)

Stone’s description of emptiness is in accord with Buddhist descriptions such as that found in Guy Newland’s Introduction to Emptiness:

It [emptiness] is the lack of the exaggerated and distorted kind of existence that we have projected onto things and onto ourselves [. . .] We can think of emptiness as like the clear, blue sky—a transparent space that is wide open. In that way, our empty natures mean there is no limit to what we can become. We are not blocked, obstructed or tied down. (Newland, 7)

Postural yoga’s śūnyatā is the opening up of the physical body to wider expression in the world, but śūnyatā is also a tool in to recursively avoid reification of ourselves into the “I.” When we begin to fixate on our concepts and labels—whether it is “me”, “Brahman”, or even “Buddhism” or “Yoga”—we can we can recursively and repeatedly apply the Upanisadic emptiness filter expressed as neti, neti (not this, not that). In this way, we avoid identification with things that hinder our development and broader expression.

Stone, like other yoga practitioners and Buddhists, sees practice in both postural yoga and meditation as critical to freedom. But Stone also sees theory—such as that presented by Patañjali and in Buddhist teachings—as a key complement to the goal of waking up.

When practice and theory go together seamlessly and our insights are continually tested out in real life, our waking up is practical and ongoing. This is called prajñā (wisdom). (Stone, 171)

The challenge, then, is for yogins—yogis and Buddhists—to find the balance of theory, postural yoga and meditation to attain freedom. At the same time the challenge is to find discipline in practice while avoiding self-styled approaches that may lead to egoic entrapment. We must help each other find the best tools to achieve freedom and awakening, while also realizing that any systems we employ may require modification and change in order to remain relevant to different times and situations. Emptiness teaches us that the ultimate Dharma, after all, is No-Dharma.

  • http://YogaDemystified.com/ Bob Weisenberg

    Great article, Matt. The Stone book sounds like it’s right up my philosophical alley.

    Everything makes perfect sense here, except, as you know from my frequent utterly chutzpahdic (Yiddish for inappropriately bold) comments on Elephant, I think I will alway object to the term “emptiness” as a general description of the universe. I just think that’s NOT REALITY.

    Here the definition of emptiness is sufficiently altered to mean just emptiness from distortions of the ego and freedom from distortion, so we can see reality, rather than the primary reality itself. So it’s not so bad the way you describe Stone and even Newland using it.

    However, I object even more strenuously to the notion that the Upanishads are generally about emptiness. According to my reading and others, they are unequivocally about the infinite richness and ineffable wonder of the universe, which is pretty much the opposite of emptiness to me.

    I hope Stone gives adequate attention to the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita in his book. As you know, most modern Yoga writers emphasize the Yoga Sutra above all else. The Yoga Sutra is a fine text and definitely one of the big three, but not sufficient in itself to get Yoga philosophy without giving full weight to the other two.

    Thanks for your fine writing here. Interested to see what others think.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystified.com

    • Anonymous

      Thanks, Bob. I agree: I don’t think the Upanisads were expounding a “doctrine of Emptiness.” I think the Upanisadic authors are just using a via negativa tool (such as “neti, neti”) at some points. Stone has more to say about the Upanisads and emptiness–I’ll try to find the quotes and get back to you tonight/tomorrow.

      Emptiness is a challenging notion in Buddhism with different schools believing different things.

  • http://YogaDemystified.com Bob Weisenberg

    Great article, Matt. The Stone book sounds like it’s right up my philosophical alley.

    Everything makes perfect sense here, except, as you know from my frequent utterly chutzpahdic (Yiddish for inappropriately bold) comments on Elephant, I think I will alway object to the term “emptiness” as a general description of the universe. I just think that’s NOT REALITY.

    Here the definition of emptiness is sufficiently altered to mean just emptiness from distortions of the ego and freedom from distortion, so we can see reality, rather than the primary reality itself. So it’s not so bad the way you describe Stone and even Newland using it.

    However, I object even more strenuously to the notion that the Upanishads are generally about emptiness. According to my reading and others, they are unequivocally about the infinite richness and ineffable wonder of the universe, which is pretty much the opposite of emptiness to me.

    I hope Stone gives adequate attention to the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita in his book. As you know, most modern Yoga writers emphasize the Yoga Sutra above all else. The Yoga Sutra is a fine text and definitely one of the big three, but not sufficient in itself to get Yoga philosophy without giving full weight to the other two.

    Thanks for your fine writing here. Interested to see what others think.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystified.com

    • Matt Helmick

      Thanks, Bob. I agree: I don’t think the Upanisads were expounding a “doctrine of Emptiness.” I think the Upanisadic authors are just using a via negativa tool (such as “neti, neti”) at some points. Stone has more to say about the Upanisads and emptiness–I’ll try to find the quotes and get back to you tonight/tomorrow.

      Emptiness is a challenging notion in Buddhism with different schools believing different things.

  • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

    Bob, the only problem I see is that the definition of sunyata (emptiness) doesn’t quite synch up with the teachings of the Buddha. This is okay to the extent that one does not care – I guess one can define things as one chooses and feel good about it.

    On the other hand, if one is trying to walk the same path, a more precise and accurate road map is useful.

    The Buddha spoke of emptiness as a quality of all phenomena. Emptiness is emptiness of an inherent, independent, stand-alone existence.

    In other words, all phenomena are dependent upon something else for their existence. One can inspect and inspect the conditioned, phenomenal realm and not find anything that has stand-alone existence – all things are contingent on something else for their existence.

    Another way of stating this same concept is that all phenomena are fabrications – they are the projections of the Mind of a Buddha(s). In other words, they have an “illusory” existence in that they are thought projections (to which we become attached as a result of ignorance).

    These teachings are meant to lead to a cessation of our attachment to that which is fabricated – all phenomenal existence (samsara). The path of Buddhism is the path to cessation of attachment to that which is conditioned, dependently-arisen fabrication – a cessation of clinging to illusion.

    It is the ultimate denial of Materialism and Naturalism and the ultimate affirmation of Idealism. In essence it says that our true Buddha Nature is No Thing that gives rise to all Things.

    We exist as if in a dream – with all phenomena being dependently-arisen thought forms or fabrications.

    This is a profound ontological discovery that establishes the true nature of Things and Buddha Nature. When we reach enlightenment it is awareness of this true nature of existence – Buddha Nature and conditioned fabrication.

    Does that make sense?

    • Anonymous

      Great response, Greg, and you bring up a good point: did the Buddha really teach sunyata? Or is this a Madhyamika (Middle Way School) development?

      I know that Buddha addressed sunya–in relation to anatta (anatman) and dependent origination–as you point out, but is this really the teaching that we end up with after Nagarjuna? I believe the Buddha pointed to it, but Nagarjuna expounded the teaching to make it clear in light of the confusion that was arising in his time from the materialists on one hand and idealists on the other.

      What I’m getting at is: are we limited to what the Buddha actually said? Or can we assume there is a “living Dharma” that can be adapted–perhaps even modified–while keeping the core teachings as guideposts? Keep in mind I don’t have pat answers to these questions nor are they asked rhetorically.

      • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

        Matt, that is one way to look at it. We can free ourselves from what the Buddha said but, on the other hand, if what he said was accurate there would be no reason that it would not remain accurate today.

        The idea of a “living Dharma” that can be modified begs the question of what, specifically, did the Buddha get wrong and how is it that we get it right?

        Another view is that the Buddha is living – as in continuity of consciousness – and still teaches just as he did previously so there is a continuous core Sangha and the Buddha himself is at the forefront of the “living Dharma.” In essence, one might have been and might continue to be a student of the Buddha Shakyamuni.

        • Anonymous

          Greg,

          What I’m getting at is not that what the Buddha said was inaccurate, but there are some things that that he wasn’t explicit about in the context of certain situations or historical developments. I believe Nagarjuna believed he was just applying the Buddha’s teaching–but he had the *need* to express himself in new ways.

          I suppose that is what you might be getting at in your last paragraph.

          But I guess I should bring it back to the question: Are we getting sunyata wrong here?

          I just read Thich Nhat Hanh who wrote “Emptiness does not mean nonexistence. It means Interdependent Co-Arising [or dependent origination], impermanence, and nonself.” I really don’t read that as being different than the descriptions presented by Stone and Newland in the above post. They are just stating it in the context of the metaphorical perspective of the person experiencing it (openness, clear blue sky, etc.).

          • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

            Emptiness, sunyata, is one of the more advanced concepts. It is a subject which does not come up in the early suttas – in fact, the Buddha avoided discussion of the concept until students had more practice under their belt.

            Thich Nhat Hahn alludes to the concept but I have not found where he addresses it in great detail. A good source is Eight Steps to Happiness, chapter on Ultimate Bodhicitta.

            In The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche there are some good passages. Discussions of Dzogchen usually are helpful.

            Thay (TNH) essentially says the same thing I posted above: Emptiness means dependent origination – in the sense that all phenomena are dependently arisen.

            All phenomena are empty of inherent existence. They have no stand-alone existence. They are dependent or contingent on something else for existence. That something else is Buddha Mind.

            In the early suttas the Buddha directs students to look at phenomena — look at this, look at that. And he goes through endless lists of things to look at in meditation. The main emphasis is on the skandhas or aggregates (two words that mean the same thing).

            And the understanding that comes from this intense inspection of phenomena is “that is not self,” “that is not self,” “that is not self.” One does not find self in phenomena.

            This is the anatta doctrine that addresses the discovery that all phenomena are not self.

            In this early practice one ends up separating (as a Buddha) from attachment to all phenomena. One comes to know Buddha Nature as a state of awareness of non-attachment or non-identification with all phenomena. (Nirvana)

            Next, one returns one’s focus to the nature of phenomena as seen from the non-attached state of Buddhahood. With non-attached Buddha Mind one continues to meditate and comes to recognize that all phenomena are mental fabrications of Buddha Mind.

            Such phenomena do not exist on their own – they are the product of Buddha Mind. Take away Buddha Mind and all phenomena disappear. They do not exist on their own.

            In the cycle of dependent origination the Buddha discusses how such fabrications arise from ignorance. In the practice one comes upon the exact moments of ignorance that brought about fabrications that persist. (Fabrication has a dual meaning: something made and a lie.)

            After playing with the nature of phenomena from the point of view of a Buddha, one sees their nature as emptiness — mere mental fabrications projected from Buddha Mind.

            The states noted in the article are not really this level of emptiness. The states described are moments of release from attachment. They are moments in which non-attachment has been realized. One can find descriptions of these in the early teachings under the Jhanas.

            So, in speaking of emptiness, we are talking about an ontological reality that can be observed. In understanding firsthand that this is the true nature of reality one awakens into Buddhahood on a more permanent basis.

            Hope that clarifies a little more.

            • Anonymous

              Greg, I think that is a nice description, particularly of Buddha Mind.

              Maybe it is fair to say there is the conventional practice/understanding of emptiness as well as the ultimate Emptiness — or ontological reality — that you refer to.

              I think any description of emptiness will end up (ironically, perhaps) lacking. Naturally, an exhaustive description of emptiness was not the purpose of the post.

              Stone’s definition of sunyata, in particular, is provided in the context of postural yoga, but he also demonstrates a strong understanding of Buddhism in general, so please don’t take my selective quotations as representative of the depth of his understanding. :)

  • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

    Bob, the only problem I see is that the definition of sunyata (emptiness) doesn’t quite synch up with the teachings of the Buddha. This is okay to the extent that one does not care – I guess one can define things as one chooses and feel good about it.

    On the other hand, if one is trying to walk the same path, a more precise and accurate road map is useful.

    The Buddha spoke of emptiness as a quality of all phenomena. Emptiness is emptiness of an inherent, independent, stand-alone existence.

    In other words, all phenomena are dependent upon something else for their existence. One can inspect and inspect the conditioned, phenomenal realm and not find anything that has stand-alone existence – all things are contingent on something else for their existence.

    Another way of stating this same concept is that all phenomena are fabrications – they are the projections of the Mind of a Buddha(s). In other words, they have an “illusory” existence in that they are thought projections (to which we become attached as a result of ignorance).

    These teachings are meant to lead to a cessation of our attachment to that which is fabricated – all phenomenal existence (samsara). The path of Buddhism is the path to cessation of attachment to that which is conditioned, dependently-arisen fabrication – a cessation of clinging to illusion.

    It is the ultimate denial of Materialism and Naturalism and the ultimate affirmation of Idealism. In essence it says that our true Buddha Nature is No Thing that gives rise to all Things.

    We exist as if in a dream – with all phenomena being dependently-arisen thought forms or fabrications.

    This is a profound ontological discovery that establishes the true nature of Things and Buddha Nature. When we reach enlightenment it is awareness of this true nature of existence – Buddha Nature and conditioned fabrication.

    Does that make sense?

    • Matt Helmick

      Great response, Greg, and you bring up a good point: did the Buddha really teach sunyata? Or is this a Madhyamika (Middle Way School) development?

      I know that Buddha addressed sunya–in relation to anatta (anatman) and dependent origination–as you point out, but is this really the teaching that we end up with after Nagarjuna? I believe the Buddha pointed to it, but Nagarjuna expounded the teaching to make it clear in light of the confusion that was arising in his time from the materialists on one hand and idealists on the other.

      What I’m getting at is: are we limited to what the Buddha actually said? Or can we assume there is a “living Dharma” that can be adapted–perhaps even modified–while keeping the core teachings as guideposts? Keep in mind I don’t have pat answers to these questions nor are they asked rhetorically.

      • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

        Matt, that is one way to look at it. We can free ourselves from what the Buddha said but, on the other hand, if what he said was accurate there would be no reason that it would not remain accurate today.

        The idea of a “living Dharma” that can be modified begs the question of what, specifically, did the Buddha get wrong and how is it that we get it right?

        Another view is that the Buddha is living – as in continuity of consciousness – and still teaches just as he did previously so there is a continuous core Sangha and the Buddha himself is at the forefront of the “living Dharma.” In essence, one might have been and might continue to be a student of the Buddha Shakyamuni.

        • Matt Helmick

          Greg,

          What I’m getting at is not that what the Buddha said was inaccurate, but there are some things that that he wasn’t explicit about in the context of certain situations or historical developments. I believe Nagarjuna believed he was just applying the Buddha’s teaching–but he had the *need* to express himself in new ways.

          I suppose that is what you might be getting at in your last paragraph.

          But I guess I should bring it back to the question: Are we getting sunyata wrong here?

          I just read Thich Nhat Hanh who wrote “Emptiness does not mean nonexistence. It means Interdependent Co-Arising [or dependent origination], impermanence, and nonself.” I really don’t read that as being different than the descriptions presented by Stone and Newland in the above post. They are just stating it in the context of the metaphorical perspective of the person experiencing it (openness, clear blue sky, etc.).

          • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

            Emptiness, sunyata, is one of the more advanced concepts. It is a subject which does not come up in the early suttas – in fact, the Buddha avoided discussion of the concept until students had more practice under their belt.

            Thich Nhat Hahn alludes to the concept but I have not found where he addresses it in great detail. A good source is Eight Steps to Happiness, chapter on Ultimate Bodhicitta.

            In The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche there are some good passages. Discussions of Dzogchen usually are helpful.

            Thay (TNH) essentially says the same thing I posted above: Emptiness means dependent origination – in the sense that all phenomena are dependently arisen.

            All phenomena are empty of inherent existence. They have no stand-alone existence. They are dependent or contingent on something else for existence. That something else is Buddha Mind.

            In the early suttas the Buddha directs students to look at phenomena — look at this, look at that. And he goes through endless lists of things to look at in meditation. The main emphasis is on the skandhas or aggregates (two words that mean the same thing).

            And the understanding that comes from this intense inspection of phenomena is “that is not self,” “that is not self,” “that is not self.” One does not find self in phenomena.

            This is the anatta doctrine that addresses the discovery that all phenomena are not self.

            In this early practice one ends up separating (as a Buddha) from attachment to all phenomena. One comes to know Buddha Nature as a state of awareness of non-attachment or non-identification with all phenomena. (Nirvana)

            Next, one returns one’s focus to the nature of phenomena as seen from the non-attached state of Buddhahood. With non-attached Buddha Mind one continues to meditate and comes to recognize that all phenomena are mental fabrications of Buddha Mind.

            Such phenomena do not exist on their own – they are the product of Buddha Mind. Take away Buddha Mind and all phenomena disappear. They do not exist on their own.

            In the cycle of dependent origination the Buddha discusses how such fabrications arise from ignorance. In the practice one comes upon the exact moments of ignorance that brought about fabrications that persist. (Fabrication has a dual meaning: something made and a lie.)

            After playing with the nature of phenomena from the point of view of a Buddha, one sees their nature as emptiness — mere mental fabrications projected from Buddha Mind.

            The states noted in the article are not really this level of emptiness. The states described are moments of release from attachment. They are moments in which non-attachment has been realized. One can find descriptions of these in the early teachings under the Jhanas.

            So, in speaking of emptiness, we are talking about an ontological reality that can be observed. In understanding firsthand that this is the true nature of reality one awakens into Buddhahood on a more permanent basis.

            Hope that clarifies a little more.

            • Matt Helmick

              Greg, I think that is a nice description, particularly of Buddha Mind.

              Maybe it is fair to say there is the conventional practice/understanding of emptiness as well as the ultimate Emptiness — or ontological reality — that you refer to.

              I think any description of emptiness will end up (ironically, perhaps) lacking. Naturally, an exhaustive description of emptiness was not the purpose of the post.

              Stone’s definition of sunyata, in particular, is provided in the context of postural yoga, but he also demonstrates a strong understanding of Buddhism in general, so please don’t take my selective quotations as representative of the depth of his understanding. :)

  • http://YogaDemystified.com/ Bob Weisenberg

    Hi, Greg.

    I understand the logic. Yoga texts and the Yoga Sutra in particular say close to the same thing. The difference is they don’t dwell on emptiness as the ultimate basis for all subsequent thinking and spiritual progress. The illusion of physical reality, supported by modern physics, is an interesting fact on the way to the ultimate reality, which is far too rich and full to be comprehended by humans, but is clearly wondrous, full, and utterly awe-inspiring, anything but “empty”. In my opinion, getting stuck on emptiness or being preoccupied with ego-dismantling keeps one keeps one from seeing the ultimate wonder and reality of the universe.

    It also isn’t clear to me that if the entire universe is nothing but meaningless fabrication, as opposed to wondrous, rich and full in a way that we will never have the capacity to understand, then why wouldn’t compassion and love and kindness be meaningless as well. To believe in these things, one has to posit a full rich moral reality that supersedes the conclusion of utter and unremitting emptiness.

    Interesting discussion, as usual, Greg. Thanks.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystifed.com

    • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

      The concept of emptiness does not mean the universe is meaningless fabrication. Rather it posits that the phenomenal realm has no meaning unto itself but rather we bring all the meaning and the wonder and the perception of richness to phenomena.

      The concept says that we should not become attached to phenomena, assuming that phenomena have inherent meaning. Rather we should realize that all phenomena are empty of inherent existence and the source of our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation.

      This recognizes the true bliss as being awake to Buddha Nature, which is non-phenomenal.

      The difficult aspect is the step-by-step practice that allows us to cease attachment to the illusion that phenomena have inherent, stand-alone existence and we do not exist apart from phenomena. In other words, our perspective is upside down. We attribute “real” existence to phenomena and we consider that we do not have “real” existence. In the end, we realize phenomena do not have “real” existence but we do have real existence separate and independent of any and all phenomena. The No Thing of Buddha Nature turns out to be that which is unconditioned, unborn, and most real though having no phenomenal qualities.

  • http://YogaDemystified.com Bob Weisenberg

    Hi, Greg.

    I understand the logic. Yoga texts and the Yoga Sutra in particular say close to the same thing. The difference is they don’t dwell on emptiness as the ultimate basis for all subsequent thinking and spiritual progress. The illusion of physical reality, supported by modern physics, is an interesting fact on the way to the ultimate reality, which is far too rich and full to be comprehended by humans, but is clearly wondrous, full, and utterly awe-inspiring, anything but “empty”. In my opinion, getting stuck on emptiness or being preoccupied with ego-dismantling keeps one keeps one from seeing the ultimate wonder and reality of the universe.

    It also isn’t clear to me that if the entire universe is nothing but meaningless fabrication, as opposed to wondrous, rich and full in a way that we will never have the capacity to understand, then why wouldn’t compassion and love and kindness be meaningless as well. To believe in these things, one has to posit a full rich moral reality that supersedes the conclusion of utter and unremitting emptiness.

    Interesting discussion, as usual, Greg. Thanks.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystifed.com

    • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

      The concept of emptiness does not mean the universe is meaningless fabrication. Rather it posits that the phenomenal realm has no meaning unto itself but rather we bring all the meaning and the wonder and the perception of richness to phenomena.

      The concept says that we should not become attached to phenomena, assuming that phenomena have inherent meaning. Rather we should realize that all phenomena are empty of inherent existence and the source of our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation.

      This recognizes the true bliss as being awake to Buddha Nature, which is non-phenomenal.

      The difficult aspect is the step-by-step practice that allows us to cease attachment to the illusion that phenomena have inherent, stand-alone existence and we do not exist apart from phenomena. In other words, our perspective is upside down. We attribute “real” existence to phenomena and we consider that we do not have “real” existence. In the end, we realize phenomena do not have “real” existence but we do have real existence separate and independent of any and all phenomena. The No Thing of Buddha Nature turns out to be that which is unconditioned, unborn, and most real though having no phenomenal qualities.

  • http://YogaDemystified.com/ Bob Weisenberg

    Hi, Greg.

    Forgive my constant questioning, but what could be more egotistical than the statement:

    “the source of our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation.”

    To the absolute contrary, I believe the ultimate source of meaning and wonder and value has nothing to do with our own creation, but exists with or without us. Does the universe cease to exist if all humanity is destroyed by an asteroid tomorrow? Of course not. Is it the universe still infinitely wondrous even if we are gone? Of course it is. To say otherwise is the height of human egotism.

    The Upanishads say, “I am That”, not “That is created by me”.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystified.com

    • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

      It is not a statement about ego but rather a statement about the nature of things as the Buddha discovered them.

      The Buddha taught the nature of Buddha Mind and the fabrications that arise as a result of ignorance.

      When one recognizes the nature of phenomena and their origin one does not get an ego boost – rather one discovers a tremendous ignorance that led one to identify with that which is not self.

      The result of such awakening has more to do with humility and compassion than ego.

      At that level ego is not a concern. Ego is a problem when one has become attached to a false self and assumes that false identity.

      For example, to say “I am that body” is a matter of attachment/identification, it is a problem with ego, it is a problem of identifying with that which is not self. One assumes a false identity (ego).

      You ask the right question but from the context of being attached. In becoming attached to a human body, one has become attached to that which is not self.

      When one ceases attachment, one discovers one is a Buddha, a conscious being that is not a thingness. Not a body. Not a human.

      Once one ceases attachment one has a Buddha, pure consciousness. Buddha Mind. Buddha Nature. Buddhahood.

      So, no the universe does not disappear if you wipe out all humans.

      On the other hand, if you wipe out all consciousness, all Buddhas, then, yes, it does disappear as the phenomenal world is simply the mental fabrication of Buddha Mind.

      When the Buddha first taught he would not speak of these things. He simply pushed the students to practice and achieve non-attachment by direct observation (meditation) on phenomena leading to the discovery they are not self. He refuses to talk about more.

      But now we have the entirety of the teachings and some of these concepts arise in discussion but they are misleading as the student has not completed the first level of the practice – the realization of anatta.

      So it is very tricky talking about such things – confusion is inevitable.

      • http://YogaDemystified.com/ Bob Weisenberg

        Hi, Greg.

        This is all most interesting information, all of which I’ve certainly heard before.

        But it seems to me you dodged my question. Do you and or other Buddhists really believe what you wrote, that “the source of our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation”? Or did what you just wrote above back off that conclusion in some way?

        I did not write my last comment, as you say, “from the context of being attached”–quite the opposite, in fact. Which is more attached–writing that “our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation”, as you do, or insisting, like the Upanishads, that meaning and wonder and value exist completely unattached to human concerns or existence? I asked you, objectively, which sounds more like the truth to you?

        Great discussion, as usual.

        Bob Weisenberg
        http://YogaDemystified.com

        • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

          Bob, I did not mean to back off the earlier statement. Was attempting to find ways of being more clear, more helpful.

          The Upanishads mirror what I have been saying. I do not believe the manner in which you characterize them is entirely accurate.

          In the Upanishads we find the concept that “The Self alone has no essence, no cause, being the cause and essence of everything and everyone.”

          From the Aitareya Upanishad:

          “Before the world was created, the Self
          Alone existed; nothing whatsoever stirred.
          Then the Self thought: Let me create the world.”
          He brought forth all the worlds out of himself…”

          Our relationship to and participation in Self is explained in other Upanishads.

          The Katha Upanishad has some passages that explain this as well.

          There is a great deal of overlap between what I was proposing and the system put forth in the Upanishads, including the idea that one is not the human body. For example:

          “He (Brahman)is formless, and can never be seen
          With these two eyes. But he reveals himself
          In the heart made pure through meditation
          And sense-restraint. Realizing him one is released
          From the cycle of birth and death.”

          There are some fascinating paths to travel in this journey.

          • http://YogaDemystified.com/ Bob Weisenberg

            Hi, Greg.

            At this point probably best to agree to disagree. I don’t think we’re going to come to a meeting of the minds on this, at least not through further blog comments.

            Bob

            • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

              Bob, it is true that the purpose of blog comments would not be to reach closure on these types of things. Rather it is simply fuel for thought … something to put on the back burner for later use should it become pertinent. Sitting around the campfire sharing stories…

  • http://YogaDemystified.com Bob Weisenberg

    Hi, Greg.

    Forgive my constant questioning, but what could be more egotistical than the statement:

    “the source of our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation.”

    To the absolute contrary, I believe the ultimate source of meaning and wonder and value has nothing to do with our own creation, but exists with or without us. Does the universe cease to exist if all humanity is destroyed by an asteroid tomorrow? Of course not. Is it the universe still infinitely wondrous even if we are gone? Of course it is. To say otherwise is the height of human egotism.

    The Upanishads say, “I am That”, not “That is created by me”.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystified.com

    • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

      It is not a statement about ego but rather a statement about the nature of things as the Buddha discovered them.

      The Buddha taught the nature of Buddha Mind and the fabrications that arise as a result of ignorance.

      When one recognizes the nature of phenomena and their origin one does not get an ego boost – rather one discovers a tremendous ignorance that led one to identify with that which is not self.

      The result of such awakening has more to do with humility and compassion than ego.

      At that level ego is not a concern. Ego is a problem when one has become attached to a false self and assumes that false identity.

      For example, to say “I am that body” is a matter of attachment/identification, it is a problem with ego, it is a problem of identifying with that which is not self. One assumes a false identity (ego).

      You ask the right question but from the context of being attached. In becoming attached to a human body, one has become attached to that which is not self.

      When one ceases attachment, one discovers one is a Buddha, a conscious being that is not a thingness. Not a body. Not a human.

      Once one ceases attachment one has a Buddha, pure consciousness. Buddha Mind. Buddha Nature. Buddhahood.

      So, no the universe does not disappear if you wipe out all humans.

      On the other hand, if you wipe out all consciousness, all Buddhas, then, yes, it does disappear as the phenomenal world is simply the mental fabrication of Buddha Mind.

      When the Buddha first taught he would not speak of these things. He simply pushed the students to practice and achieve non-attachment by direct observation (meditation) on phenomena leading to the discovery they are not self. He refuses to talk about more.

      But now we have the entirety of the teachings and some of these concepts arise in discussion but they are misleading as the student has not completed the first level of the practice – the realization of anatta.

      So it is very tricky talking about such things – confusion is inevitable.

      • http://YogaDemystified.com Bob Weisenberg

        Hi, Greg.

        This is all most interesting information, all of which I’ve certainly heard before.

        But it seems to me you dodged my question. Do you and or other Buddhists really believe what you wrote, that “the source of our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation”? Or did what you just wrote above back off that conclusion in some way?

        I did not write my last comment, as you say, “from the context of being attached”–quite the opposite, in fact. Which is more attached–writing that “our meaning and wonder and value is our own creation”, as you do, or insisting, like the Upanishads, that meaning and wonder and value exist completely unattached to human concerns or existence? I asked you, objectively, which sounds more like the truth to you?

        Great discussion, as usual.

        Bob Weisenberg
        http://YogaDemystified.com

        • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

          Bob, I did not mean to back off the earlier statement. Was attempting to find ways of being more clear, more helpful.

          The Upanishads mirror what I have been saying. I do not believe the manner in which you characterize them is entirely accurate.

          In the Upanishads we find the concept that “The Self alone has no essence, no cause, being the cause and essence of everything and everyone.”

          From the Aitareya Upanishad:

          “Before the world was created, the Self
          Alone existed; nothing whatsoever stirred.
          Then the Self thought: Let me create the world.”
          He brought forth all the worlds out of himself…”

          Our relationship to and participation in Self is explained in other Upanishads.

          The Katha Upanishad has some passages that explain this as well.

          There is a great deal of overlap between what I was proposing and the system put forth in the Upanishads, including the idea that one is not the human body. For example:

          “He (Brahman)is formless, and can never be seen
          With these two eyes. But he reveals himself
          In the heart made pure through meditation
          And sense-restraint. Realizing him one is released
          From the cycle of birth and death.”

          There are some fascinating paths to travel in this journey.

          • http://YogaDemystified.com Bob Weisenberg

            Hi, Greg.

            At this point probably best to agree to disagree. I don’t think we’re going to come to a meeting of the minds on this, at least not through further blog comments.

            Bob

            • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

              Bob, it is true that the purpose of blog comments would not be to reach closure on these types of things. Rather it is simply fuel for thought … something to put on the back burner for later use should it become pertinent. Sitting around the campfire sharing stories…

  • http://www.plankdesigns.com/products_photo.html Doreen Hing

    To All,
    As a novice with a slight interest in discovering a bit more of the Buddhist & yoga connection. I haven’t learnt anything in this conversation, except that I need a dictionary of sanskrit or something.

    You guys keep at at discovering the journey & when you can talk to me the lowly novice with some interest, which has the potential of going deeper, since it has been spiked, let me know in an un-translated post.

    Thanks guys for confusing me more than when I arrived…

    • Anonymous

      Doreen,

      You bring up a valid point and I’ll personally work harder to make sure the posts are understandable to a wider audience.

      However, terminology–be it Sanskrit, Chinese, or other–is sometimes imbued with a distinct meaning or resonance that isn’t always captured with an English synonym.

      Sometimes it also more helpful to ask questions about something posted that you don’t understand. There are no stupid questions as long as the questioner is earnest about understanding. I ask questions all the time!

      Thanks for commenting and I hope you’ll do it again!

      -Matt

    • http://YogaDemystified.com/ Bob Weisenberg

      Yeah, Doreen, this particular conversation is pretty specialized, and I think necessarily so. It’s not meant as an introduction. For that I refer you back to my eBook, http://YogaDemystified.com.

      That said, I’d like to join with Matt in encouraging you to ask specific questions so we can explain things better for you and the other readers who probably had the same reaction as you but are not so forthcoming.

      I did go back to see what specialized terminology I had used, because I generally try to avoid it. The only things I could find in my own comments were the names of three ancient Yoga texts and the Yiddish term chutzpahdic, which I defined. I would be happy to go back and express anything else I wrote more clearly.

      Thanks for writing.

      Bob Weisenberg
      http://YogaDemystified.com

    • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

      One need not consider oneself lowly.

      What you are observing is a number of levels of study being presented at once. Not ideal.

      The first step in yoga and in Buddhism is the same. Achieve a level of calmness and stillness so that one can observe. Calm the body. Calm the mind. Free the consciousness to simply Be.

      The second step is observation. As one becomes more relaxed and more able to observe, one separates from attachment and identification with all manner of phenomena: feelings, thoughts, sensations, body. One ceases attachment.

      In a state of non-attachment one can observe more fully (perception is better) and one can observe the nature of Self and of phenomena.

      The rest is merely a discussion of “here is what I observed.”

      It is pretty straightforward. At any level you need not consider yourself lowly but rather a Buddha who is in the process of observing. And what you observe is valid.

  • http://www.plankdesigns.com/products_photo.html Doreen Hing

    To All,
    As a novice with a slight interest in discovering a bit more of the Buddhist & yoga connection. I haven’t learnt anything in this conversation, except that I need a dictionary of sanskrit or something.

    You guys keep at at discovering the journey & when you can talk to me the lowly novice with some interest, which has the potential of going deeper, since it has been spiked, let me know in an un-translated post.

    Thanks guys for confusing me more than when I arrived…

    • Matt Helmick

      Doreen,

      You bring up a valid point and I’ll personally work harder to make sure the posts are understandable to a wider audience.

      However, terminology–be it Sanskrit, Chinese, or other–is sometimes imbued with a distinct meaning or resonance that isn’t always captured with an English synonym.

      Sometimes it also more helpful to ask questions about something posted that you don’t understand. There are no stupid questions as long as the questioner is earnest about understanding. I ask questions all the time!

      Thanks for commenting and I hope you’ll do it again!

      -Matt

    • http://YogaDemystified.com Bob Weisenberg

      Yeah, Doreen, this particular conversation is pretty specialized, and I think necessarily so. It’s not meant as an introduction. For that I refer you back to my eBook, http://YogaDemystified.com.

      That said, I’d like to join with Matt in encouraging you to ask specific questions so we can explain things better for you and the other readers who probably had the same reaction as you but are not so forthcoming.

      I did go back to see what specialized terminology I had used, because I generally try to avoid it. The only things I could find in my own comments were the names of three ancient Yoga texts and the Yiddish term chutzpahdic, which I defined. I would be happy to go back and express anything else I wrote more clearly.

      Thanks for writing.

      Bob Weisenberg
      http://YogaDemystified.com

    • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

      One need not consider oneself lowly.

      What you are observing is a number of levels of study being presented at once. Not ideal.

      The first step in yoga and in Buddhism is the same. Achieve a level of calmness and stillness so that one can observe. Calm the body. Calm the mind. Free the consciousness to simply Be.

      The second step is observation. As one becomes more relaxed and more able to observe, one separates from attachment and identification with all manner of phenomena: feelings, thoughts, sensations, body. One ceases attachment.

      In a state of non-attachment one can observe more fully (perception is better) and one can observe the nature of Self and of phenomena.

      The rest is merely a discussion of “here is what I observed.”

      It is pretty straightforward. At any level you need not consider yourself lowly but rather a Buddha who is in the process of observing. And what you observe is valid.

  • http://www.subtleyoga.com/ Kaoverii Weber

    Just a quick chime in here – I read through some of the comments, but my mind goes into tailspins if I try to wrap it around everyone’s comments so I”ll try to be brief.

    Most of the underpinnings of yoga philosophy nowadays in the States come from Krishnamacharya’s teachings – remember the days of the Hare Krishnas and Swami Satchidananda? (God, I’m old). Anyway, Krishnamacharya’s thing was the Yoga Sutras – so you get this narrow perspective – agree with Bob there (and just about everywhere now that I’ve actually read some of his writings!). I even had one student say, “If it’s not in the Sutras, then it’s not yoga.” Yikes! I did not concur – in a very calm, yogic, it’s-all-good kind of way of course;->.

    At any rate, this narrow focus has lended itself nicely to yoga philosophy being co-opted by righteous Theravadans. Not that I have any problem with Buddhism – love it! love it! Love Thailand, love Nepal, love the Dali, love it all. Not much of a Budddhist scholar, but I can see when the language of yoga is corralled into Buddhist thought structures and it happens a lot in the west. And Buddhism can be just as dogmatic as any other religion – definitely a kind of Saidian Orientalism going on in the west around Buddhism too – but that’s for another short, quick, and rapidly getting long-winded entry.

    Just wanted to say that I would be very happy to see Buddhists commenting on yoga better frame their arguments and disclose their biases – How bout “The Inner Tradition of Yoga from a Buddhist Perspective” Haven’t read the book, but you get my gist. More transparency please Mr. Stone.

    And one more little tiny thing. This makes me gasp (but only in a calm, yogic sort of way): “The yogi does not look toward her practices as metaphors of consolation, and in this sense we would call Patañjali’s approach toward reality an agnostic one.”

    Well, Michaelji I give you kudos for giving it to the girls, but my practice, which I consider very yogic, is no metaphor – it is very plainly a consolation. And I thank all the deities for the refuge it provides.(ooh, that sounds almost Tibetan Buddhist). And I would argue quite rigorously that Patanjali’s approach (with or without the diacritics) is a highly theistic one.

    No, he never created a lot of groupies – that’s plainly because human beings like soppy devotion and he doesn’t offer it. Can find heaps of sandalwood sculptures of Krishna all over Mysore, but Patanjali – pretty hard to come by. People want love – it all comes down to it. Love your blog Matt!

    Jai Ma and Pa!

    Kaoverii

  • http://www.subtleyoga.com Kaoverii Weber

    Just a quick chime in here – I read through some of the comments, but my mind goes into tailspins if I try to wrap it around everyone’s comments so I”ll try to be brief.

    Most of the underpinnings of yoga philosophy nowadays in the States come from Krishnamacharya’s teachings – remember the days of the Hare Krishnas and Swami Satchidananda? (God, I’m old). Anyway, Krishnamacharya’s thing was the Yoga Sutras – so you get this narrow perspective – agree with Bob there (and just about everywhere now that I’ve actually read some of his writings!). I even had one student say, “If it’s not in the Sutras, then it’s not yoga.” Yikes! I did not concur – in a very calm, yogic, it’s-all-good kind of way of course;->.

    At any rate, this narrow focus has lended itself nicely to yoga philosophy being co-opted by righteous Theravadans. Not that I have any problem with Buddhism – love it! love it! Love Thailand, love Nepal, love the Dali, love it all. Not much of a Budddhist scholar, but I can see when the language of yoga is corralled into Buddhist thought structures and it happens a lot in the west. And Buddhism can be just as dogmatic as any other religion – definitely a kind of Saidian Orientalism going on in the west around Buddhism too – but that’s for another short, quick, and rapidly getting long-winded entry.

    Just wanted to say that I would be very happy to see Buddhists commenting on yoga better frame their arguments and disclose their biases – How bout “The Inner Tradition of Yoga from a Buddhist Perspective” Haven’t read the book, but you get my gist. More transparency please Mr. Stone.

    And one more little tiny thing. This makes me gasp (but only in a calm, yogic sort of way): “The yogi does not look toward her practices as metaphors of consolation, and in this sense we would call Patañjali’s approach toward reality an agnostic one.”

    Well, Michaelji I give you kudos for giving it to the girls, but my practice, which I consider very yogic, is no metaphor – it is very plainly a consolation. And I thank all the deities for the refuge it provides.(ooh, that sounds almost Tibetan Buddhist). And I would argue quite rigorously that Patanjali’s approach (with or without the diacritics) is a highly theistic one.

    No, he never created a lot of groupies – that’s plainly because human beings like soppy devotion and he doesn’t offer it. Can find heaps of sandalwood sculptures of Krishna all over Mysore, but Patanjali – pretty hard to come by. People want love – it all comes down to it. Love your blog Matt!

    Jai Ma and Pa!

    Kaoverii

  • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

    Kaoverri wrote: “Just wanted to say that I would be very happy to see Buddhists commenting on yoga better frame their arguments and disclose their biases – How bout “The Inner Tradition of Yoga from a Buddhist Perspective” Haven’t read the book, but you get my gist. More transparency please Mr. Stone.”

    Not sure I understand what it is you are requesting. In what way did I not seem to be transparent? (Or perhaps in what way did I not offer clarity?)

    Love your comment about righteous Theravadans.

  • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

    Kaoverri wrote: “Just wanted to say that I would be very happy to see Buddhists commenting on yoga better frame their arguments and disclose their biases – How bout “The Inner Tradition of Yoga from a Buddhist Perspective” Haven’t read the book, but you get my gist. More transparency please Mr. Stone.”

    Not sure I understand what it is you are requesting. In what way did I not seem to be transparent? (Or perhaps in what way did I not offer clarity?)

    Love your comment about righteous Theravadans.

  • http://www.subtleyoga.com/ Kaoverii Weber

    Not you. Talking about Michael Stone and the title of the book here, sorry about that. I didn’t really get to dig into your comments too much – got a 6 year old and we’re in the process of setting up the lego jedi counsel this morning!

    • http://tamingthewolf.com/ Greg

      Ah, I agree with you on other Stone.

      The Lego Jedi Counsel? Oh, no. ***Backing away, bowing and trembling.*** Have fun.

  • http://www.subtleyoga.com Kaoverii Weber

    Not you. Talking about Michael Stone and the title of the book here, sorry about that. I didn’t really get to dig into your comments too much – got a 6 year old and we’re in the process of setting up the lego jedi counsel this morning!

    • http://tamingthewolf.com Greg

      Ah, I agree with you on other Stone.

      The Lego Jedi Counsel? Oh, no. ***Backing away, bowing and trembling.*** Have fun.

  • Dave

    This is a test.

  • Steve

    Test post

  • Plankmatsnmore

    This conversation probably wasn't the best place for me to get an intro's perspective… I can only read so much on line, even tho' I'm guilty of long commentary…
    Bob your comments don't have as much need for translation, but I wasn't able to get past the starting point to know if your points were relevant, valid or if they were in English, but thanks for letting me know that you tried to address it…

  • bobweisenberg

    HI, Kaoverii.

    I loved your highly informed and insightful comments. Thanks for being here.

    Coincidentally, there was an Elephant Journal blog about Deepak Chopra today that, together with my comment there, kind of says it all in a nutshell. Take a look and see if you agree: http://bit.ly/aG6hZK

    I'll look forward to talking with you further about these fascinating issues.

    Bob Weisenberg
    http://YogaDemystified.com

  • yogabuddhist

    Kaoverii,

    Thanks for commenting. I believe Stone is being transparent in the sense that he is clearly presenting his influences and interests in terms of both yoga and Buddhism (I am probably the only one guilty of the lack of transparency given the limited subject matter of the post). And Stone does refer to several other Hindu and yogic texts other than the Yoga Sutras in his book.

    Also, I believe the “agnosticism” Stone is referring to in the quote is more of a popular pragmatism in terms of approach to the divine (and true agnosticism isn't a denial of the divine anyway). I don't believe Stone is denying the divine aspects of the Yoga Sutra.

    Finally, I think Stone's usage of “yogi” is intended as gender neutral. I myself struggle to find a word for yogi/yogini (yogin?), but many Western writers have simply decided to use “yogi” as referring to both yogi and yogini.

    I am intrigued by your discussion of the Krishnamacharya. Have you posted information about this before. If not, I welcome you to post a guest post either here or on your own blog.

    Also, I love the humor you present in your comments.

    -Matt (Michael Stone fanboy) ;)

  • http://richardnriver.insanejournal.com/487.html Mattress store

    Indeed, and this goal -freedom- is the one that allows us to improve not only our well-being but our whole life!

Recently Reviewed

Image of Contemplating Reality: A Practitioner's Guide to the View in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism